Indian Larry

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Posts by Indian Larry

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  207

  Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed christians are not the fds.

  if the anointed are not the fds, who are?.

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  Indian Larry

  My mistake. I was just re-reading your post and I see you did respond to some of my questions. Let me read a couple of min. and I will post again.

  Thanks
• 
  207

  Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed christians are not the fds.

  if the anointed are not the fds, who are?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  Recovery - you said: Matthew 7:22,23 "22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

  That is very true. Who is a worker of lawlessness. Perhaps an organization that has put into place directives that help facilitate child abuse, or could it be an organization that hyprocritically joins the UN, or is it the organization that secretly dumped loads of used ink illegally polluting the earth. My personal vote is for the organization that claims to speak for Jehovah but has continually been wrong for over 100 years. Who has brought more reproach on Jehovah's name than the Watchtower? They did a worldwide advertising campaign claiming in Jehovah's name that millions then living would never die. Ooops. I guess that brought a little ridicule to Jehovah's name now didn't it?

  Anyway, I notice that you did not answer the simple scriptural questions I posed. Do you think you can do that? In case you forgot here they are, I will number them and you can answer by number:

  1. Tell me why I should ignore Jesus's command at Luke 21:8

  2. Tell me why Mark 13:21-23 does not apply to the society

  3. Explain to me why Deuteronomy 18:20-23 does not apply to who you call the "faithful slave"

  4. Explain to me why the FDS directly claims Jehovah lied in Jeremiah 25:12

  5. When is the 144,000 sealed? See Revelation 7

  Maybe you are honest hearted if so I hope you can see the truth in the scriptures above. If you are not and just want to knowingly push a lie then bring it on. Prove to me I am wrong. I am open minded, if you can answer any of the questions above I will be willing to look at your answer with an open mind. The thing is though, you can't. You know it, I know it, and everyone on this board knows it.

  Your response should be direct clear answers to the five questions above. If you can.
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  207

  Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed christians are not the fds.

  if the anointed are not the fds, who are?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  Recovery - You said: Let's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed Christians are not the FDS. If the anointed are not the FDS, who are?

  I thought of one other question I would like to scripturally challenge you on.

  Your belief is that the annointed are those of the 144,000. Read the first part of Revelation 7. When are the 144,000 sealed?

  The sealing does not even start until AFTER the sixth seal is opened. Was the sixth seal opened in 33 AD?

  Please show that scripturally
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  207

  Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed christians are not the fds.

  if the anointed are not the fds, who are?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  Recovery - In case you want to stick strictly to scriptures here is the challenge, four question. Use scriptures.

  Tell me why I should ignore Jesus's command at Luke 21:8

  Tell me why Mark 13:21-23 does not apply to the society

  Explain to me why Deuteronomy 18:20-23 does not apply to who you call the "faithful slave"

  Explain to me why the FDS directly claims Jehovah lied in Jeremiah 25:12
• 
  207

  Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed christians are not the fds.

  if the anointed are not the fds, who are?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  Emory -
• 
  207

  Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed christians are not the fds.

  if the anointed are not the fds, who are?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  Recovery – I challenge you to prove the line of reasoning in this post wrong. Some of this I already posted but not all of it. My challenge is that you use the BIBLE to prove any of the assertions in this argument wrong. I am being sincere. I would love to share the same beliefs as my parents, my wife and most of my friends, I don't want to have to walk around afraid of telling the truth about what I believe for fear of getting DF'd. The problem is I need to know that what I believe is the truth, and this line of reasoning proves that the so called faithful slave is NOT who they say they are. So once again I challenge you. Just like the society you picked out of my last post what you wanted to use and ignored ther rest. That is intelectually dishonest. If you are going to attempt to defend what you feel is the truth, do it in a truthful way.

  Tell me why I should ignore Jesus's command at Luke 21:8

  Tell me why Mark 13:21-23 does not apply to the society

  Explain to me why Deuteronomy 18:20-23 does not apply to who you call the "faithful slave"

  I will warn you however, if you are simply a JW troll (and you very well may be) you might not want to try to argue this using scriptures. You may just realize that everything you have believed, everything you have known as the truth is all lies. Ultimately that is good to know, however it hurts like nothing else when the realization finally hits you. If that is the case, if you don't want to risk the pain, then just go ahead and label me as an apostate, say I am going to die because I believe what the bible says, give some flip answers, and ignore the argurment found here.

  1. I do not believe the Bible identifies the slave. Even Christ asked it as a rhetorical question.
  2. The slave is chosen on the masters (Christ’s) return. That has not happened yet.

  I know he has not returned yet because the following has not happened:

  (Matthew 24:30) And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

  (Revelation1:7) Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

  There are other scriptures along these lines as well but those two should be sufficient.

  I can however prove SCRIPTURALLY that the WTBTS is NOT the “faithful slave”

  First of all lets look at this clear and simple command that Jesus gave his followers:

  (Luke 21:8) He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.

  Notice this COMMAND? “Do not go after them.”. Pretty clear to me

  (1John4:1) Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

  (Mark13:21-23) “Then, too, if anyone says to YOU, ‘See! Here is the Christ,’ ‘See! There he is,’ do not believe [it]. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones. 23 YOU, then, watch out; I have told YOU all things beforehand.

  Now the question is did the WTBTS say “The due time has approached”?

  Of course. So many times it has almost become their mantra. Here are just two or three of the many many times they been guilty of this. (Both before and after they claim Jesus chose them for being faithful and discrete)

  "The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the "time of the end" began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874." Watchtower 1922 Mar 1 p.73

  " The date of the close of that "battle" is definitely marked in Scripture as October 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October, 1874. " Zion's Watch Tower 1892 January 15 p.23

  The Spring of 1918 will bring upon Christendom a spasm of anguish greater even than that experienced in the Fall of 1914.... The travail that is coming is to be upon nominal Zion- "Christendom" … "Babylon"; and it will be a great and sore affliction- "A Time of Trouble such as was not since there was a nation." (The Finished Mystery p. 62 [stated to be the "Posthumous Work of Pastor Russell" on p. 2])

  Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by million, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of Christianity. (The Finished Mystery, 1917 edition, p. 485)

  "Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874." (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1924, p5)

  "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914." Watchtower 1924 p.211

  This warning that the “appointed time has come” is a regular hobby for the FDS. Christ also gave us another warning about false prophets where he compared them to fruit trees and said we would know them by their fruit. What is the fruit of a false prophet? False prophecy. How do we know if prophecy is false? Simple:

  (Deuteronomy 18:20-23)

  20 “‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’

  These scriptures alone show without the shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ could never have chosen a group of false prophets to represent him. He specifically told his followers NOT to follow false prophets. So even if he had returned in 1914 (which he didn’t) he STILL would never have chosen them. And EVEN if he did and you write off all the false prophecy before 1918, what did they turn around and do after they supposedly entered into an “approved condition”

  ***wschap.8p.67par.5Sharingin“theJoy”ofthe“PrinceofPeace”***

  In 1919 the anointed disciples of the reigning King, Jesus Christ, did enter into an approved condition , and this was attended with immense joy on their part.

  They didn’t even slow down on the false prophecy. They had the nerve to continue to insist that Christ presence started in 1874:

  "Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874." (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1924, p5)

  None of this is even taking into account that the date 1914 is simply wrong. It is easy to prove that scripturally as well. Of course historians (and anyone with any sense) knows that Jerusalem fell in 587. However to prove that you need to go into a deeper study that most witnesses just can’t follow. To simply prove 1914 wrong by the scriptures all you have to do is read

  (Jeremiah 25:12) 12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de′ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.

  The Governing Body agrees with all historians that Jerusalem fell in 589. They count 70 years back from 587 to come up with 607. But that is clearly wrong. Notice what the scripture above says: “ when seventy years have been fulfilled”. That means that Jehovah would call into account Belshazzar AFTER the seventy years are complete. He can’t do that 2 years AFTER the King is dead, after all the dead are “conscience of nothing at all”. So unless the WTBTS wants to say Jehovah was lying they are definitely 2 years off on 1914. That is clear, simple and based on scripture. The fact is they are 20 years off but it really does not matter because we really don’t need to know when that time is:

  (Acts1:7) He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction;

  With all the above I believe I have moved any perceived burden of “scriptural proof” squarely on your shoulders to show the following (using scriptures as I did)

  1. Prove Christ has arrived
  2. Prove he chose the WTBTS in 1918-1919

  Not possible. Period.
• 
  207

  Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?

  by Recovery in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed christians are not the fds.

  if the anointed are not the fds, who are?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Indian Larry

  I agree with a earlier poster who said the burden of proof is on the WTBTS not on the individual.

  Who the slave is I can not prove scripturally for two reasons:

  1. The bible does not say specifically who the slave is.

  2. Jesus names the slave AFTER his return. He has not returned. Has this happened?

  (Revelation1:7) Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

  (Matthew 24:30) And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

  (Matthew 24:23-27) “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

  Did the society say to us: ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’? Yes.

  "Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874." (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1924, p5) Note that this is years after their "selection" and they are still teaching a lie

  (Watchtower April 1, 1923, p. 106) '1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures...the Christian has much more

  upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the Scriptures reveal) upon

  which to base his faith in the coming deluge'

  "A religion that teaches lies cannot be true." (Watchtower December 1, 1991 p7)

  Here are some other scriptures (all from NWT) that may help you understand the viewpoint of most of us on this board:

  (Luke 21:8) He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them. ( The due time has approached is the WT mantra. Note that this is a COMMAND from Jesus. It carrys just as much weight as the command to Lot's wife not to turn back to Sodom. It should probably not be ignored)

  (2Thessalonians2:3-4) Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

  (1John4:1) Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

  (Jeremiah23:32) “Here I am against the prophets of false dreams,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “who relate them and cause my people to wander about because of their falsehoods and because of their boasting.” “But I myself did not send them or command them. So they will by no means benefit this people,” is the utterance of Jehovah.

  ***w81 5/1 p. 17*** "Let the honest-hearted person compare the kind of preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom done by the religious systems of Christendom during all the centuries with that done by Jehovah's Witnesses since the end of World World I in 1918. They are not one and the same kind"

  "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end" to the world, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that He was using and guiding them.'' (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968)

  1972 "Does this admission of making mistakes stamp them [Watchtower] as false prophets? Not at all, for false prophets do not admit to making mistakes." (Watchtower, Nov. 1, 1972, p. 644)

  Note: Any false prophet would have to admit that they made a mistake when what they predict does not come true. Admission of a making a mistake does not have anything to do with whether a prophet is a true prophet.

  There are 100's of examples of false prophecy. Jesus commanded us NOT to follow false prophets therefore he would NEVER have chosen false prophets to be his "faithful slave" If you want to know 100% who the slave is, wait until Christ's return and he will let everyone know. Anyone who makes that claim before his return is appointing themselves.
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  13

  Has anybody heard of anointedjw.org? Thoughts?

  by Indian Larry in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i stumbled across this site.

  was wondering what you all think about it?.

  http://anointedjw.org.

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  Indian Larry

  I stumbled across this site. Was wondering what you all think about it?

  http://anointedjw.org
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  7

  Acts 4:21 - There Is No Salvation in Anyone Else

  by Darth Rutherford in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  (the watchtower, 11/1/1990, p.25, par.

  -the watchtower 1/15/2011, p.4, par.

  -the watchtower 12/15/2007, p.14, par.

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  Indian Larry

  Thank you for this article. The Titanic is a good illustration and it is well researched and backed up with quoted from the WTBS.

  It is true that Acts 4:21 should be a warning sign, almost like an iceberg hitting the hull, that the passengers should be worried about. Especially with all the other icebergs they have been bouncing off of in the past few years. Between the pedophile mess, the UN/NGO debacle, the "overlapping generation" the increasing memorial partakers, largest turnover of any religion, selling off branches, and it goes on and on.

  It is almost like the "ship" (organization) is like a pinball in a field of icebergs. Yet the seven captains at the helm all seem to be asleep. The throttle is on full and no one seems to be able to make the smart choice to slow down, warn the passengers, and change direction.

  As passengers who are awake we need to be ready to abandon. To carry the analogy further we could steal a lifeboat and get off now, but some of us can't convince our family that the ship is going down. In that case we need to try our best to get them stationed as close as possible to the lifeboat station so when they finally do realize the danger they can get out right away.

  The ship is listing badly, the rudder is not responding (back and forth doctrine) the engine is failing (the engine of publishing), the lower decks are flooded (many of the more "aware" witnesses have already left). In the meantime the governing body is rearrainging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.

  You know the current governing body started officially determining doctrine for the WTBS on January 1 1976. How convenient. Is there any way for those that can see the danger the ship is in to take out the Captain and take over control?
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  6

  My 14yr. old daughter started "early college" this week

  by Indian Larry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i finally found one good thing about growing up a witness and not getting to go to college.

  because neither my wife nor myself ever went past high school that makes our daughter eligible for a program sponsored by the bill and melinda gates foundation.

  she is 14. in 4 years from now when she should be graduating high school she will have two years of college under her belt, at no cost to me.

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  Indian Larry

  3rdgen - She has always been at the top of her class and has been in the AIG group since 3rd grade. She makes me a proud daddy.

  Skeeter1 - I am glad the prep helps with the last two years. I think this is a slightly different program though. She is not getting college prep classes at a high school, she is actually attending a college. It is part of the University of North Carolina system. The high school classes are taught by the same professors that teach the other classes. For the first year and a half she will be taking high school courses then the rest of the time it will be college courses.